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pony65k

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PostSubject: Machine Heads??   Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:38 pm

Hey all.

I've got a G6120SSL. I have these machine heads in the beast "Deluxe Sperzel® Nickel-Plated Die-cast Locking Tuners" I've gone to the Sperzel site to have a look for the model number and I'm not 100% certain what it is.

Here's the link for Sperzel:

Sperzel

I think it be 3+3 T/L Nickel?

I'm not sure if something is wrong with a few of my tuners, but when I turn the button marginally, nothing happens until I over turn the button and then have to tune down the string if this all makes any sense. The worst ones are on the E, A & D strings. These seem to continually go out of tune. G, B & E don't seem to have any problems. The D sometimes just seems to let go with a click sound while tuning from time to time.

Any ideas? Does it seem like my tuners may be stuffed?

This is like speaking a new language.

René
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ossi

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:09 am

I suppose its the nut, strings are not sliding over it smoothly.

I got SSL also (it's a -94) with some sperzels and the nut was changed to goosebone
couple years ago when frets was changed also.

I got Stainless Steel frets now which are not as big as I wanted, but the biggest there
was available and they should last a little longer.
That was maybe not the smartest move but live & learn, etc.
Wink

I dunno if the goose-bone nut is any much better compared to some-sort-of graphite-nut (black)
that was innit originally but it also depends on the string size what you use,
nut has to be filed for the right size. I got the usual trouble with G-string not keeping the tune
whilst using the bigsby.

Some lubricant helps on the nut also, I use toothpick to add it when changing strings.
I use non-liquid lubricant with dry graphite. I don't always add the stuff cuz
I'm known to be very lazy at times.
Laughing

Hope this helps somewhat.

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:08 am

pony65k wrote:
Hey all.

I've got a G6120SSL. I have these machine heads in the beast "Deluxe Sperzel® Nickel-Plated Die-cast Locking Tuners" I've gone to the Sperzel site to have a look for the model number and I'm not 100% certain what it is.

Here's the link for Sperzel:

Sperzel

I think it be 3+3 T/L Nickel?

I'm not sure if something is wrong with a few of my tuners, but when I turn the button marginally, nothing happens until I over turn the button and then have to tune down the string if this all makes any sense. The worst ones are on the E, A & D strings. These seem to continually go out of tune. G, B & E don't seem to have any problems. The D sometimes just seems to let go with a click sound while tuning from time to time.

Any ideas? Does it seem like my tuners may be stuffed?

This is like speaking a new language.

René

sperzel locking are all ther same and once the string fits through the post hole it has cleared the lock pin (internal). I assume you cinched down the string with the locking screw(knurled knob on back of the tuner). If that is all accomplished, then there is really only one other thing that could fault that tuner; stripped gearing and I've never come across this in sperzels (cheap ping tuners yes) and I've installed 100's.

now... I should have asked if you changed string gage from the stock 10g that came on your guitar, because even though the stock nutt on a setzer guitar is Delrin (a very very slippery nut), if you increase the string gauge even slighty(some brands in the same gauge will have thicker winds on the low strings;EAD) you will have to have a luthier
recut/open the slots more to accommodate the gauge diff.

If the tuners all work, and gauge hasnt changed, try some Teflon lube in the slots. If you still have problems...might give you peace to swap the nut as ossi mentioned. I personally like Graphtec, and thats what I have on my SSU. For the sake of the bigsby and me using 11g strings, I needed it.
(I also use a micarta nut on my strat with graphtec saddles...)

string binding drives me insane, but the combo of the improvement on my SSU's nut, proper slotting work, and coated strings make life a tad better!
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pony65k

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:31 pm

I did have the strings changed, but off the top of my head I can't remember the gauge. I didn't do it, I had it set up for me, so I gather it was done properly, considering Terry is a guitar guru. I do know that the strings are the same ones Pistol Pete has, so if he reads this, he may add in what the gauge is. My problem is I'm a total novice. I can't explain this stuff properly, all I know is I feel there's something not right. I'm no really using the Bigsby, so the tuning shouldn't be going out like it is (to my way of thinking).

So you think the problem is more the nut than the tuners, is that what you're saying?

Also, if I'm getting a fret buzz and say my technique is right, does that mean my string are set too low? Id this the action of the guitar? All these terms to learn. Again, I feel something isn't right, but it's probably me. Crying or Very sad

Thanks guys,

René
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ossi

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:06 pm

string height together with the bow of the neck makes the action.

they need to be set up, if strings buzzes, either or both needs adjustment

string height from bridge and neck bow with truss rod

the truss rod is something that needs a lot of caution or you can easily ruin the neck

I'd hassle with the bridge first but you can look at the neck long/wise and see
if there a little bow cuz there oughta be just a little

Very Happy
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tvthewiredturtle

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:23 pm

I really hate to say this but its just true...as much as Gretsch has improved quality and
tries to employ all the good stuff.. they just dont seem to care about a guitar leaving the
factory with the pkups set correctly ( a must to enjoy the tone correctly ie. 3/16th to 5/32nds from bottom
of E strings to top of pickup COVER) let alone use good rubber shims.. so you can bet they
dont spend too much time dialing in the nut slots, the bridge saddle slots, the truss rod adj. for proper
neck bow and/or bridge to fretboard heighth.

All to say Rene, ALL gretsch guitars need to go to a luthier upon purchase and it needs to
be one that specializes less in strats and telecasters, more in the 3g's hollowbodies (gretsch, guild, gibson)

If you dont think you will be gettin all over the bigsby then just have them set the guitar up with affordable and reliable D'addario XL110s ( in this realm electro harmonix makes a good set too )


or if you can afford it, my friend Jason reps these new coated strings "Cleartone"


when you take the guitar in be sure to tell the luthier that you need to insure that the nut and saddle
slots are cut and deburred properly, as well as reshimming the tvjones pickups and graphite lubing
the pin shafts of the sperzels.

You will end up with a gretsch guitar worthy of the Master himself playing it, if its done correctly.

btw.. you are not alone in your gretsch frustration, especially in spending the kind of money that
would give you a top notch Paul Reed Smith or John Suhr guitar ready for any gig out of the box.
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ruger9

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Tavo, "king of the rotating avatar!"

You change your avatar more than you change strings! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:48 pm

ruger9 wrote:
Tavo, "king of the rotating avatar!"

You change your avatar more than you change strings! Laughing

that reminds me, its time to change my strings! I freakin hate changing
strings on a gretsch. Gotta pull out the needle nose pliers,toothpicks and pomade.
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:41 pm

check my new thread (don't want to hijack this one) on bigsby string changes...
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:11 pm

pony65k wrote:
I did have the strings changed, but off the top of my head I can't remember the gauge. I didn't do it, I had it set up for me, so I gather it was done properly, considering Terry is a guitar guru. I do know that the strings are the same ones Pistol Pete has, so if he reads this, he may add in what the gauge is. My problem is I'm a total novice. I can't explain this stuff properly, all I know is I feel there's something not right. I'm no really using the Bigsby, so the tuning shouldn't be going out like it is (to my way of thinking).

So you think the problem is more the nut than the tuners, is that what you're saying?

Also, if I'm getting a fret buzz and say my technique is right, does that mean my string are set too low? Id this the action of the guitar? All these terms to learn. Again, I feel something isn't right, but it's probably me. Crying or Very sad

Thanks guys,

René

Rene, I'm using D'Addario 11-49. Bring the guitar back to Terry and ask him to check the relief on the nut. I've had Terry do mine and I have no problem with it ever going out of tune and I don't run Sperzels.
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JC

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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:56 pm

G'day René

I agree with the other posts re the nut,

I use Ernie Ball Power Slinkys 11 - 48 on my Gretsch SSLVO and don't have any problems with the guitar going out of tune.

Stupid question, but are you giving your strings a good stretch after restringing?
If you do even a slight bend the string goes out of tune. This is because
you haven't stretched in your guitar strings.

To stretch in your strings, grab one string at a time between your
thumb and index finger and pull it up away from the fret board and back
down several times. Do this at 3 different positions along the neck. Say at the 5th Fret, 12th Fret, 17th Fret. After you
have done this, retune your string back up, and repeat the process. Do
this to every string,

Also you don't need multiple winds around the string post with Sperzels. Just put the string through the hole pull tight and screw the lock nut tight and tune to pitch, stretch, retune etc.

Cheers
John
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:42 am

tvthewiredturtle wrote:
I really hate to say this but its just true...as much as Gretsch has improved quality and
tries to employ all the good stuff.. they just dont seem to care about a guitar leaving the
factory with the pkups set correctly ( a must to enjoy the tone correctly ie. 3/16th to 5/32nds from bottom
of E strings to top of pickup COVER) let alone use good rubber shims.. so you can bet they
dont spend too much time dialing in the nut slots, the bridge saddle slots, the truss rod adj. for proper
neck bow and/or bridge to fretboard heighth.

All to say Rene, ALL gretsch guitars need to go to a luthier upon purchase and it needs to
be one that specializes less in strats and telecasters, more in the 3g's hollowbodies (gretsch, guild, gibson)

If you dont think you will be gettin all over the bigsby then just have them set the guitar up with affordable and reliable D'addario XL110s ( in this realm electro harmonix makes a good set too )


or if you can afford it, my friend Jason reps these new coated strings "Cleartone"


when you take the guitar in be sure to tell the luthier that you need to insure that the nut and saddle
slots are cut and deburred properly, as well as reshimming the tvjones pickups and graphite lubing
the pin shafts of the sperzels.

You will end up with a gretsch guitar worthy of the Master himself playing it, if its done correctly.

btw.. you are not alone in your gretsch frustration, especially in spending the kind of money that
would give you a top notch Paul Reed Smith or John Suhr guitar ready for any gig out of the box.

I finally got a precise measuring tool to set the pups correct with little mouse pad shims (do the need to be the size of the pup?). I did a pre-measurement and it seems to be about 2/32nds lower on the bridge and neck on the low E side...I need to measure the high e side.

I need to get some graphite lube for the contact points and some locking sperzals...

what does pomade do for guitar lubing? Since my g/f owns a salon, it could be pretty easy and cheap to come by Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:55 am

I'm Incinerator wrote:
tvthewiredturtle wrote:
I really hate to say this but its just true...as much as Gretsch has improved quality and
tries to employ all the good stuff.. they just dont seem to care about a guitar leaving the
factory with the pkups set correctly ( a must to enjoy the tone correctly ie. 3/16th to 5/32nds from bottom
of E strings to top of pickup COVER)



I finally got a precise measuring tool to set the pups correct with little mouse pad shims (do the need to be the size of the pup?). I did a pre-measurement and it seems to be about 2/32nds lower on the bridge and neck on the low E side...I need to measure the high e side.

I need to get some graphite lube for the contact points and some locking sperzals...

what does pomade do for guitar lubing? Since my g/f owns a salon, it could be pretty easy and cheap to come by Smile

the mousepad/neoprene shims only need to be as wide and long as the
tone rails that the pkups sit on/screw on....oops ..or in your case w/ the spectrasonic they need to be cut to sit underneath the pkup and between the pkup screws (you'll see when the pickup comes out), You may also need to double up cuz you want that foam pushing up against the pickup. just be sure that when you are screwing down the pickup you are using physical pressure of your hands on the outside edge of the pkup, pushing down to assist the screw mounts.
its not hard, but if you dont assist the screws going into the wood, the shims will counter and possibly strip the wood the screws are going into.
resulting in the new job of shoving super glue and toothpicks into those screw holes to start over. ( a way to avoid this is to drop liquid super glue into the holes right when you take the pkups out to put shims in.
it hardens the screw holes and insures they dont strip out easily.

ps. murrays pomade is cheap crap that sits in a metal can that doest leak in your guitar case. It also holds your hair back in the worst conditions and washes out ONLY with olive oil.
dang perfect for the nut slots of a guitar... screw graphite paste ,or nut sauce and all those things I wasted money on for yrs...save that for an irritating strat and its trem. IMO.


side note: Hawlywood's "layrite" is the BEST pomade for hair and it washes out like gel.. not good on the guitar though. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:46 pm

Olive Oil? weird!!! You'd think you'd need a grease cutting agent like dish soap to get it out. That's some pretty hardcore stuff.
Suspect

didn't the gretsch spectra sonics use derlin for their nuts? If they did, that stuff is supposed to be self-lubricating...or atleast that's what I remember from the derlin coated skateboard bearings I had...

I guess being a Gretsch owner/player is a thing of love and labor Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:54 pm

shaker wrote:
Stupid question, but are you giving your strings a good stretch after restringing?
[/font][/font]If you do even a slight bend the string goes out of tune. This is because
you haven't stretched in your guitar strings.

To stretch in your strings, grab one string at a time between your
thumb and index finger and pull it up away from the fret board and back
down several times. Do this at 3 different positions along the neck. Say at the 5th Fret, 12th Fret, 17th Fret. After you
have done this, retune your string back up, and repeat the process. Do
this to every string,

Also you don't need multiple winds around the string post with Sperzels. Just put the string through the hole pull tight and screw the lock nut tight and tune to pitch, stretch, retune etc.

Cheers
John

Hey Shaker.

Mate, that's not a stupid question. I didn't know about this. I didn't change the strings. I'm a total novice, so I'm learning as I go.

pistol pete wrote:
Rene, I'm using D'Addario 11-49. Bring the guitar back to Terry and ask him to check the relief on the nut. I've had Terry do mine and I have no problem with it ever going out of tune and I don't run Sperzels.

I'll take Pete's advice and head back to Terry. Just don't want to piss the guy off if it comes across that I suggest he didn't do a good job which is NOT what I'm saying at all.

Probably head in there today.

Thanks everyone fro the advice. Much appreciated.

René
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:16 pm

I'm Incinerator wrote:
Olive Oil? weird!!! You'd think you'd need a grease cutting agent like dish soap to get it out. That's some pretty hardcore stuff.
Suspect

didn't the gretsch spectra sonics use derlin for their nuts? If they did, that stuff is supposed to be self-lubricating...or atleast that's what I remember from the derlin coated skateboard bearings I had...

I guess being a Gretsch owner/player is a thing of love and labor Smile

Delrin is also used for guitar picks, a great nylon substitute but its just a self lubricating thermoplastic with a slippery surface... its the graphtec stuff that is graphite impregnated TEPHLON... it rules on a bigsby for the nut. Sucks for the bridge saddles, but thats another thread!

ps. dishwashin liquid does nothing for your hair with pomade like murrays. the old barber trick is to first wash your hair with a half cup of
olive oil, then regular shampoo. take it from a pompadoured grease monkey that almost burned his eyes out with dish soap ONCE.. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:14 pm

I wish I had the hairline for a pomp. Unfortunately, I was cursed with my dad's hairline instead of my mom's. So, I don't get the full and straight front and it ends up looking like a faux hawk... Mad. Which is why I've decided to do locks of love while I still got the locks to grow out and give.

That Murray's pomade must be some serious slick stuff if you need olive oil to help wash it out. Do you need to rub some EEVO on your guitar to remove excess pomade from the nut and saddles??
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:07 pm

I'm Incinerator wrote:
I wish I had the hairline for a pomp. Unfortunately, I was cursed with my dad's hairline instead of my mom's. So, I don't get the full and straight front and it ends up looking like a faux hawk... Mad. Which is why I've decided to do locks of love while I still got the locks to grow out and give.

That Murray's pomade must be some serious slick stuff if you need olive oil to help wash it out. Do you need to rub some EEVO on your guitar to remove excess pomade from the nut and saddles??

no excess involved, a meticulous and surgical like procedure involving no anesthesia. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:59 am

right on, precise procedure using a toothpick over a 10 blade scalpal Smile
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PostSubject: Problem Sorted.   Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:59 pm

Problem mostly sorted!!! It was the nut. Terry took the strings out and filled the nut to let the strings slide nicely. He also noticed that the Bigsby doesn't full release after it's used. Lifting the lever sorts that problem out. I gather it just has to be broken in, so more practice time coming up.

Thanks again everyone for your input. It's greatly appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:04 pm

pony65k wrote:
Problem mostly sorted!!! It was the nut. Terry took the strings out and filled the nut to let the strings slide nicely. He also noticed that the Bigsby doesn't full release after it's used. Lifting the lever sorts that problem out. I gather it just has to be broken in, so more practice time coming up.

Thanks again everyone for your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Rene thats awesome, affirms the luthiers notion that all pitch problems
begin and end with your nuts. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:06 pm

tvthewiredturtle wrote:
pony65k wrote:
Problem mostly sorted!!! It was the nut. Terry took the strings out and filled the nut to let the strings slide nicely. He also noticed that the Bigsby doesn't full release after it's used. Lifting the lever sorts that problem out. I gather it just has to be broken in, so more practice time coming up.

Thanks again everyone for your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Rene thats awesome, affirms the luthiers notion that all pitch problems
begin and end with your nuts. Smile

TV, you can't hold my nuts responsible for all the pitch problems in the world. I'm not that potent Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Machine Heads??   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:17 pm

pony65k wrote:
tvthewiredturtle wrote:
pony65k wrote:
Problem mostly sorted!!! It was the nut. Terry took the strings out and filled the nut to let the strings slide nicely. He also noticed that the Bigsby doesn't full release after it's used. Lifting the lever sorts that problem out. I gather it just has to be broken in, so more practice time coming up.

Thanks again everyone for your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Rene thats awesome, affirms the luthiers notion that all pitch problems
begin and end with your nuts. Smile
If I had said "our" then Pete would try to claim responsibility. king

TV, you can't hold my nuts responsible for all the pitch problems in the world. I'm not that potent Wink
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