I find choices hard to make..

Hai TV (and all others). I love reading your posts for a couple of years now. Sometimes they're to complicated for me but I learned a lot about things I never thought about with out reading them.
That's the reason why I finaly try to get some advise from you.

I finaly have enough money to buy a gretsch I've been saving for for a long time. I have my mind set on a silver falcon. I think this is a beautifull guitar. I've been to a store to hear it and play it. I did love it but then I played the G6118 and it sounded much better. I do not like the looks of that one so much but it sounded really great. I have a friend who thinks I'm crazy for even buying a gretsch. To expensive, I would lose to much money when I buy it new and he says he would never buy a model over the sound.. I think his opinion is important but stil don't like the colour of the 6118 enough to buy it.
Will installing tv jones upgrade the sound enough? What about the falcon not having bracing? Is that important? Would it be better to look for a setzer falcon? Do not like the idea of absence of the tone selecter and pots, is that stupid?
Would realy apriciate some advise from you (all) because I think you give good advise. Also I want to buy 'my guitar' quick because I've thought about it too much now and also I fear the car gets broken and the money I've saved is spent...

Greetz

nietsk wrote:

Hai TV (and all others). I love reading your posts for a couple of years now. Sometimes they're to complicated for me but I learned a lot about things I never thought about with out reading them.
That's the reason why I finaly try to get some advise from you.

I finaly have enough money to buy a gretsch I've been saving for for a long time. I have my mind set on a silver falcon. I think this is a beautifull guitar. I've been to a store to hear it and play it. I did love it but then I played the G6118 and it sounded much better. I do not like the looks of that one so much but it sounded really great. I have a friend who thinks I'm crazy for even buying a gretsch. To expensive, I would lose to much money when I buy it new and he says he would never buy a model over the sound.. I think his opinion is important but stil don't like the colour of the 6118 enough to buy it.
Will installing tv jones upgrade the sound enough? What about the falcon not having bracing? Is that important? Would it be better to look for a setzer falcon? Do not like the idea of absence of the tone selecter and pots, is that stupid?
Would realy apriciate some advise from you (all) because I think you give good advise. Also I want to buy 'my guitar' quick because I've thought about it too much now and also I fear the car gets broken and the money I've saved is spent...

Greetz

Hey hey, Cool! that makes me really excited in that I love these guitars sooo much.

here goes:
[quote="nietsk"]Hai TV (and all others). I love reading your posts for a couple of years now. Sometimes they're to complicated for me but I learned a lot about things I never thought about with out reading them.
That's the reason why I finaly try to get some advise from you.

I finaly have enough money to buy a gretsch I've been saving for for a long time. I have my mind set on a silver falcon. I think this is a beautifull guitar. I've been to a store to hear it and play it. I did love it but then I played the G6118 and it sounded much better. I do not like the looks of that one so much but it sounded really great. I have a friend who thinks I'm crazy for even buying a gretsch. To expensive, I would lose to much money when I buy it new and he says he would never buy a model over the sound.. I think his opinion is important but stil don't like the colour of the 6118 enough to buy it.
Will installing tv jones upgrade the sound enough? What about the falcon not having bracing? Is that important? Would it be better to look for a setzer falcon? Do not like the idea of absence of the tone selecter and pots, is that stupid?
Would realy apriciate some advise from you (all) because I think you give good advise. Also I want to buy 'my guitar' quick because I've thought about it too much now and also I fear the car gets broken and the money I've saved is spent...


Hey hey,
While I think you should let your ears and hands be the judge, its hard to ignore what the eyes see of course.... the hard part is that you want a really expensive "falcon" and the 6118 anni is the lowest price Terada built Nashville.
A gretch can always have its top repainted really affordably ($80 tops) or pinstriped !
before we talk about the guitars build lets talk about resale value between the two but lets
include the Setzer version too: (these are not the Big blue book pricings)

gretsch silver falcon= list $4300, sale price $3000, average used ebay price $2600+/-$100

gretsch 6118T anniv= list $2500, sale price $1700, average used ebay price $1000+/-$100

gretsch 6136LBP setz blk phoen.=$4625, sale price $3250, average ebay used $2800+/-$200 ?

I put the ebay prices I see these running for and closing at, but I have to tell you that there are several
online dealers that are trustworthy around the USA giving much better deals brand new!
Warpdrive music and (my pal) Shanghai guitars have awesome service and deals on gretschs all
the time. I bought my G6118 anniv on a seasonal sale new for $900 shipped from Shanghai, this
beat Warpdrives price by $100 AND I was given the 6118T version (bigsby)!!

It is my personal motto to always buy low and sell high, whether new or used. (selling of course only in the event
I dont want it anymore or I bought it to fix up and sell for a small profit)

I will give you my opinion and then address the reasons why.
The newly produced G6118T is not anything like the older anniversary models, it is superior in its build by
50%. The tops are super thin (3 ply) versus 5ply (most all older models and still many new models are 5ply)
and the fretboard coming over the body/neck joint is now floating like the 6120RHH and 6120SSL models.
This guitar is extremely light and resonant ( more tone for good pkups) and the reason I bought one because
it was the EXACT build quality and caliber of my rev horton heat signature 6120 (had to sell that to pay bills
and I didnt like the wide headstocks nut to tuner post angles for the strings,hard to stay intune)

I think you may have experienced a few things different between the two guitars you played simply because
the Scale length, body width and depth of each model differ.
The 6118 is a standard modern nashville build that uses a
24.6" scale neck, a 2.5" body depth and a 16" body width.

the 6136TSL silver falcon has a 25.5 scale (think strat,tele tension), a 2.75" body depth,
and a 17" body width (at the lower bout) PLUS it has trestle bracing.

While these guitars are very much gretsch sounding, the nashville body with just the tone post (standard model) is going to have a rounder sound with more bark in the low mids, the nashville body with trestle bracing
increases the bodies sustain but slightly scoops out the bark of the low mids and inherently adds more of a
high mids sheen the strum.
THEN....sheeze.. the scale length of the Falcon will be slightly brighter do to increase string tension and the guitar will put out more lows ( a bit) because of it being 1/2" bigger in depth and 1" bigger in width.

Personally I do not like what the trestle bracing does to the tone of a gretsch IF you like Brian Setzers live tone.
He doesnt seem to prefer the trestled tone either when it comes to his performance with his BSO (not talkin
about straycats tone) as he almost always chooses his late 90s Hotrod models (non trestled) over his vintage
59'. These hotrod models (my fav) are tone rail and tone post only. no trestles!! why ? those damn trestles make
the guitar behave more like a semi hollow (which is rad but not for "that setzer BSO" tone I love)

now....does the 6118 look as cool and flashy as a falcon?? no.. but then again the two tone vintage green is very
"rockabilly" hip. I still swoon over the looks of a falcon anyday.

okay finally the differences between ANY Setzer signature guitar over regular gretsch guitars is HUGE!! ..in my
personal experience in owning most all the models/ and or repairing them (ncluding the rev horton)
The Setzer Phoenix is nitro lacquer finished, while the falcon is only polyurethane and has the cheap space control bridge..
the setzer phoeniz has medium jumbo frets, Tvjones pkups, pinned bridge, and ABR-1 bridge

I have also found that the setzer guitars fret dressings and general hardware installations (bigsby centers properly over pkups, nut precision cut and mounted perfect) are superior in attention in comparison to
standard models.
the 6120SSU/SSL and 6120RHH command perfection in detail build and attention even over the Setzer signature hotrod series!!

so..you have choices you have to make!! May I add that I would never buy a brand new guitar anyway... they
take almost 2 months of heavy playing to break in just from a set up point of view, not to mention that the wood
needs to settle into its new shape as a guitar (I wont go into how to break in your gretsches wood top)
...and yes you will always lose money if you go into a store and buy new. I have found this not to be the case
in smart online buys. I will always suggest Joel at Shanghai-guitars.com. He is the best in customer service and
price!

ps. look how the "facade" of the G6118T changes by putting TVjones Ptrons in
(btw.. the second you put Tvjones classics in place of the crap stock gretsch
filtertrons and good tuners, youre guitar comes alive IMO)

What is that green plate-like thing under the Bigsby Handle? Oh, yeah. "For customer removal only!"

wo nice speech! Im saving up for my second Gretsch, a red hot rod. I was reading what you said about the trestle bracing and that Setzer prefers his old Hotrods due to the sound. I recall hearing him say this before or elude to it. Now of course its way cheaper to get the old ones, probably a little harder to find, but arent the old ones they poly finish? which, in your eyes would be the better buy, price aside for now

mjcodina wrote:

wo nice speech! Im saving up for my second Gretsch, a red hot rod. I was reading what you said about the trestle bracing and that Setzer prefers his old Hotrods due to the sound. I recall hearing him say this before or elude to it. Now of course its way cheaper to get the old ones, probably a little harder to find, but arent the old ones they poly finish? which, in your eyes would be the better buy, price aside for now

every setzer gretsch (most all gretsch models) is polyurethane finish unless specified
and are always more expensive. (ie. SSL, SSLVO). The hotrods are all spec'd poly BTW..

The new ones (that have TV at the end: 6120SHBTV) have all the goods and more attention to vintage build (ie. floating fretboard, thinner top, trestle bracing) plus all electronics are very good, as well as hardware.
Its all done for you other than pulling out the stupid wood shims under the pkups that
dont let you adjust the filtertrons correctly.

BUT... again, want the BSO tone..look at what he's playing. His of course have thinner tops as he first spec'd them to be so, but in several articles expressed his frustration with the tops getting thicker again (5ply instead of 3ply). plus refret from tom jones.

So..tvjones and sperzel up an older model for cheap. live happy!

hey thanks alot man. thats a big help.

mjcodina wrote:

hey thanks alot man. thats a big help.

always!

...look at what he's playing...

His red & purple hot rods: pre-FMIC sound post models

His black pinstripe: post-FMIC hot rod with trestle braces

His signatures: almost certainly post-FMIC trestle braced

His '59's: trestle braced. Gretsch MRI'd the '59 to find out what was inside, and the new Hot Rods were boarn out of that, hence the trestles.

his new sparkle BSO-Christmas Xtrav. Hot Rods: almost certainly trestle-braced

I have to disagree with you on this one TV, I've read your posts, I've read all the Setzer interviews, and I think you've misread what he said about the whole sound post vs. trestle thing. In the end, it doesn't really matter... he plays guitars WITH and WITHOUT trestle braces, and he likes them all. That's all that matters to him, and all that should matter to all of us.

I do agree he seems to favor those 99's for the BSO. However, on the last xmas tour, he played those sparkles almost exclusively, and I'll bet dollars to donuts the paint on those guitars may be custom shop, but the bracing is trestle, just like all modern HRs.

Like I said- it doesn't really matter. We are al a little Setzer-crazy here, and we all probably need to care less about the gear he uses & more about developing our own sound & style! I know *I* sure do...

FYI for anyone who is interested, there are frequently pre-FMIC, soundpost-braced Hot Rods on ebay in the $1300 range. Bear in mind the older HRs don't have the current upgrades the post-FMIC HRs do: locking tuners, pinned bridge, TVJ (or at least TVJ-designed) pickups, and of course the trestles.

My '05 Candy Apple Red arrived yesterday, and while she's in mint condition, she's a MESS... getting ready to polish the frets, give her a good complete scrubbing & polishing, check & reset action, intonation, relief. Install the treble bleed. When I'm done she'll look like new. And I got her for only $1400 shipped.

ruger9 wrote:

...look at what he's playing...

His red & purple hot rods: pre-FMIC sound post models

His black pinstripe: post-FMIC hot rod with trestle braces

His signatures: almost certainly post-FMIC trestle braced

His '59's: trestle braced. Gretsch MRI'd the '59 to find out what was inside, and the new Hot Rods were boarn out of that, hence the trestles.

his new sparkle BSO-Christmas Xtrav. Hot Rods: almost certainly trestle-braced

I have to disagree with you on this one TV, I've read your posts, I've read all the Setzer interviews, and I think you've misread what he said about the whole sound post vs. trestle thing. In the end, it doesn't really matter... he plays guitars WITH and WITHOUT trestle braces, and he likes them all. That's all that matters to him, and all that should matter to all of us.

I do agree he seems to favor those 99's for the BSO. However, on the last xmas tour, he played those sparkles almost exclusively, and I'll bet dollars to donuts the paint on those guitars may be custom shop, but the bracing is trestle, just like all modern HRs.

Like I said- it doesn't really matter. We are al a little Setzer-crazy here, and we all probably need to care less about the gear he uses & more about developing our own sound & style! I know *I* sure do...

FYI for anyone who is interested, there are frequently pre-FMIC, soundpost-braced Hot Rods on ebay in the $1300 range. Bear in mind the older HRs don't have the current upgrades the post-FMIC HRs do: locking tuners, pinned bridge, TVJ (or at least TVJ-designed) pickups, and of course the trestles.

Oh you dont have to agree for sure, but there are some generalizations and conjectures
coming from your side of the court too.

I try to stay away from making statements that I cant back up but I guess if I cant use
magazine interviews, I cant use my direct conversations in the past with Tom Jones
who works on his guitars, or Billy Zoom who worked on his amps, or my friend here at
the Corona fender shop who let me in on the setzer stuff just as they got the guitar
on the table.

I'm not wanting to sound puffed up at all, but I do have to defend the issues of my info
sources until proven wrong. Brian has been working with Fred Gretsch way before
the fender thing happened and decided to turn Brian into their golden child of guitar
sales.

Regarding the "should" stuff about us playing more like him and worrying less about
his gear, thats a personal choice too since I play like Tavo and probably will never
play like Brian or care too much to study Jazz. I work on guitars and equipment and thus
will always care about gear, in particular Brian Setzer, Jimi Hendrix, and SRV to
the 9's.

I'm akin to discuss from that angle especially since I've got resistors, caps and solder all over my desk at the moment as I type.

You also gave me an FYI about pre FMIC "Bear in mind the older HRs don't have the current upgrades the post-FMIC HRs do: locking tuners, pinned bridge, TVJ (or at least TVJ-designed) pickups, and of course the trestles.
"
When the truth of that situation is TVjones filtertrons and sperzels were avail. on pre
FMIC guitars as a dealer special order. I have owned both of those pre FMIC models.
This could be why you can still buy the more affordable 6120SH or the more expensive 6102SHTV with tvjones

Also can you verify for us that His black pinstripe is post FMIC. I have a photo
of that custom painted guitar. He has several pre FMIC that have been painted
for him by folks that have nothing to do with Fender custom shop. The flack black
model also has changed pkups at least 3 times that I know of and this is from direct
conversions from my supplier, Tom Jones. They tried "slug" filters (as they were first
called) and that didnt work, then classics were in it, and now supertrons are in it.

The magazine articles do have strange comments because in Guit Player '98
setzer is quoted saying " I've been playing a Gtetsch 6120-the chet atkins model-for
years-for years. Its got to be a 59' -same year as me. I've tried a 58' AND IT SOUNDED
TOO SOLID-like a Gibson ES-335. Nice but not my sound. The 58's are too heavily brace;
the top doesnt resonate enough. I looked inside and there is a ton of block bracing.
In '59, gretsch built the 6120 with just one and two strips of wood. AND IT MAKES
a TOTAL difference. Of course, nobody would notice that except a nut like me."

In 2001 guit player he affirmed this thinking again ( non trestle but tone post) by
being quoted saying [b]" a 59's top is only 1/8" thick, and that gives it a looser, midrangier, sound. The bracing that year was also much lighter"[b]

You can see how I being a gear centric guitar hotrodder, would find this affirming my
own personal tone tests with pre and post fender gretsches, tone post and trestle, thick
tops and thin tops, spectrasonics and gibson es335s with filtertrons.

Again, not trying to win anything just want to be sure that you dont put me in the corner
as one making wild statements. This stuff is my passion and I've been his tone disciple since my first LPs that still hang on the wall. Its a sickness.

Like I said TV, I'm not trying to debate with you or anything, and I certainly don't think you make wild statements. Never meant to imply that you were ill-informed at all. I've learned TONS from you on this subject over the last couple years. You have my gratitude.

My statement of "we should worry less about Brian's gear" was not directed at you or meant as a criticism at all. I'm a gearhead too. I just think sometimes we all get a little too wound up in getting things "exact", that's all. Me included. For axample, I've settled on a Dan-Echo for my slap... it's small, it's easy, it sounds great, and I love it. I don't need an RE-301. I'll just push my Dano with a clean boost. Works for me.

I was not aware the TVJs or Sperzels were available pre-FMIC. I stand corrected.

As for the pinstripe, I MEANT to write "almost certainly" trestles, like I did for the others. Typo there. Ignition, which was the 1st time I saw the pinstripe, was 2004, and seeing as how Fender took over in 2003, I thought it safe to assume that guitar has trestles. However, no one seems to know 100% when EXACTLY the switch to trestles was made, only that it was post-FMIC. And if you have sources that say it's probably pre-FMIC, I believe you. But you can see why it could be safe to assume it was post-FMIC based on dates.

With regards to the Brian quote on the trestles vs. posts, the 335 has SOUNDPOSTS. To my knowledge, ALL the Gretsches had/have SOUNDPOSTS with the exception of a small run on those 6120s back in the day. When he says "2 strips of wood" I think (here's were you & I differ) that he's referring to the 2 TRESTLES in the body, as opposed to the "soundposts" which would be described more as "blocks", not thin "strips." I also find it pretty convincing that it's been verified (by him) his '59 does indeed have trestles, Gretsch did an MRI scan to find out what they were, then copied the desgins for the Hot Rods. In one interview (I don't have the mags in front of me, so I can't be sure of a date/year) he said "they've gotten those new Hot Rods as close as you can get" [to my '59]. To me, that's another indicator of trestles in his '59. I find it very hard to believe all this effort was put forth to duplicate an old, little-used brace in one of Brian's guitars if Brian himself didnt like they way they performed. It would have been Brian who told Gretsch to put the trestles in the sigs & Rods.

We agree on the thin tops thing. But I don't think those interviews completely verify or deny whether Setzer "prefers" trestles or tone posts. AND, my point was anyway, IT DOESN'T MATTER MUCH... he plays guitars with soundposts, as well as trestles. So he likes & uses them BOTH. That was my only point there. We are both TRYING to figure out exactly what he's saying regarding the posts/trestles, but he's not 100% clear about it. And frankly, to think that all these years he prefers soundposts after all the trouble of scanning guitars & recreating the trestles for his SIGNATURE line of guitars, borders on conspiracy theory. It just doesn't make any sense.

I have NEVER thought you make wild statements or unsubstantiated claims. Hell, I think besides Brian, Billy, and TVJ, you & me know more about Brian's gear than anyone else I've discussed with on the net! The whole "research" thing... it's a sickness like GAS is. When I want to know something, I dig, & dig, & dig... Something tells me we'd go on well into the night over cocktails about whether Brian uses posts or trestles, getting drunk enough to fly to Minneapolis, knock on his door, and demand to see his collection for proof!

Well friend its all good, all good indeed.. no harm no foul!!

I will still say a block of wood and small strips equals 2 tone rails glued
to the inside top of the guitar and a tone post is the small balsa like piece of
wood that keeps the top and bottom of the guitar vibrating in synchro..but ya..

here is something I'll post only here and please dont let it get out of here, over to
the jones website or gretschpages. ( I kinda stopped posting over there since I got
in trouble with stupid ass Fender for posting in house pictures of setzers guitar at the corona custom shop before
they started working on the clone.....)

this gets rid of all speculations from any of us.

this is from Tom to me:
"His older Setzer Hotrods were thicker and had a sound post under the bridge, and thicker sides.
They are his HR guitars with the extra hole in the upper bout.

The Christmas ones are newer, trestle braced and thinner tops, backs, and sides. We used them to cut our wooden shim video."

Here's to ya (lifts a glass of Jameson and eggnog) my setzer forum buddy!!

tvthewiredturtle wrote:

gretschpages. ( I kinda stopped posting over there since I got
in trouble with stupid ass Fender for posting in house pictures of setzers guitar at the corona custom shop before
they started working on the clone.....)

I always wondered why I didn't see you over there anymore... mum's the word on all info I get from you.

BTW, any recc's for removing tarnish from chrome? My HR has fingerprints "burned" into the damn tuners... and the sig (headstock) plate... dude had corrosive sweat or something. I was going to try Brasso ("cleans & polishes brass, chrome, copper, pewter, & stainless".

EDIT: Brasso was a no-go. The chrome is shinier now, but the fingerprints remain.

ruger9 wrote:

tvthewiredturtle wrote:

gretschpages. ( I kinda stopped posting over there since I got
in trouble with stupid ass Fender for posting in house pictures of setzers guitar at the corona custom shop before
they started working on the clone.....)

I always wondered why I didn't see you over there anymore... mum's the word on all info I get from you.

BTW, any recc's for removing tarnish from chrome? My HR has fingerprints "burned" into the damn tuners... and the sig (headstock) plate... dude had corrosive sweat or something. I was going to try Brasso ("cleans & polishes brass, chrome, copper, pewter, & stainless".

EDIT: Brasso was a no-go. The chrome is shinier now, but the fingerprints remain.

I lurk but posting is kinda "whats the point" since its governed by Fender constantly.

regarding chrome or nickel (use these on gold plating and you will suddenly have a nickel finish as thats is required for the electroplating):
I use 4 items:
1. Eagle One NevrDull wadding polish 4 metal ( amazing 4 taking pits off nickel & chrome)
2. Blue Magic headlight lense restorer (perfect for shiny plastic surfaces)
3. 0000g stainless steel ( fastest and safest/ also removes water spots from glass)
4. Carnuba finish wax w/ a dremel polish pad

with those finger prints it almost sounds like nickel finish, that happens on tvjones
nickel pkup covers, they constantly need cleaning with 0000g stainless.

on the Sperzels... chrome or nickel? I don't know.

ruger9 wrote:

on the Sperzels... chrome or nickel? I don't know.

Pennsylvania Dutch eggnog response:
chrome=


nickel=

you crack me up.

Accd to Gretsch website, they are nickel-plated.

BTW, on of the tuners' ferrule nuts was stripped out, would tighten. I called Sperzel, and they are mailing a new one in the AM- no charge- even tho I bought it USED. How's that for customer service?

wow you guys what knowledge contained on these pages. Sorry about the Gretschpages issues and such. its really sucks when companies and stuff limit people like that and put a damper on things. happened over at the Tommy Emmanuel forum I think as well. good stuff guys and thanks for sharing the insight. I was the same way about Jamiroquai years ago. feeding and feeding off little tidbits of info
Man i wish i could see those Gretsch pics of yours but i understand you cant.

TV and ruger I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!
If I ever get famous and stuff I will hire you both as my Guitar Techs and you'll get tons of money^^
I'm not trying to copy Brian's Sound, I don't even care about bracing stuff etc. but reading your posts and learning so much from you guys is just so fucking cool

Guitarmaniac wrote:

but reading your posts and learning so much from you guys is just so fucking cool

I agree man, I'm more into the playing side than the tech side but the detail of all the info provided here borders on the poetic, wonderful stuff indeed!!

Wouldnt it be cool if we could get Rich Modica on this section of the forum? All speculations
would be over about Setzer's oh so secret set up. I want to know what he's really hiding behind that case next to his amp. There's something underneath it man... no one plays a gig
and leaves an anvil case nothin sitting on the stage unless its a stinking 5 band show and
even then you shove your stuff behind your rig.

I would be very sad if it was this:

dude i forgot about that freakin box! what the hell could be in it? I hadnt really thought of it

mjcodina wrote:

dude i forgot about that freakin box! what the hell could be in it? I hadnt really thought of it

some say just an extra RE-301, some say just its case.... I have been in angst for ever, but
whatever it is..it better be cool.

Don't you think maybe he's just using it as a table to hold his towel & water bottle?

Sometimes the most obvious answer could actually be correct....

ruger9 wrote:

Don't you think maybe he's just using it as a table to hold his towel & water bottle?

Sometimes the most obvious answer could actually be correct....

pragmatism

I believe it's a magic Voodoo Box, built by a hawaiian Voodoo priest, with a staue of the Tiki-God of guitar playing inside.

Any other theories??